Government forms

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Government forms

Post  Taylor on Mon Jan 16, 2012 3:00 am

Which government forms should be in the game? Let's see if we can compile a list. I'll go first:

==Imperial Governments==
- Celestial Empire (china)
- "King of Kings" Empire (name? persia)
- Theocratic Empire (egypt)
- Federated Empire (Carthage)
- Some other type of empire (Assyria/Babylonia, or do we think the Persian style is suitable for that?)

=="Normal" Governments==
- Democracy (athens et al)
- Tyranny (many greek states)
- Aristocratic Monarchy (many many states)
- Diarchy (sparta!)

==Tribal Governments==
- Tribal Despotism
- Tribal Democracy

What type of govt should the Iranian peoples have at game start?

Thoughts?

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Re: Government forms

Post  Derahan on Mon Jan 16, 2012 3:42 am

Perhaps you forgot Republic for Rome? Smile

Otherwise the others sounded good

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Re: Government forms

Post  Taylor on Mon Jan 16, 2012 3:53 am

maybe Rome could also be a federated republic?

I'm thinking that perhaps there should be a republic govt form that can nonetheless control large land areas.

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Re: Government forms

Post  videonfan on Mon Jan 16, 2012 4:49 am

The states of greece should have a government called "city state"
If you want more complicated you can have aristocratic monarchy and plutocracy for them(expect form athens which was democracy)Tyrranny and Diarchy should also be in

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Re: Government forms

Post  Taylor on Mon Jan 16, 2012 5:10 am

videonfan wrote:The states of greece should have a government called "city state"
If you want more complicated you can have aristocratic monarchy and plutocracy for them(expect form athens which was democracy)Tyrranny and Diarchy should also be in

I don't like calling a govt form "city state" because it doesn't refer to their actual form of government, but instead references their size and population distribution.

I now have for Greece
- Democracy
- Tyranny
- Oligarchy
- Plutocracy
- Diarchy
- Monarchy

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Re: Government forms

Post  videonfan on Mon Jan 16, 2012 5:14 am

Taylor wrote:
videonfan wrote:The states of greece should have a government called "city state"
If you want more complicated you can have aristocratic monarchy and plutocracy for them(expect form athens which was democracy)Tyrranny and Diarchy should also be in

I don't like calling a govt form "city state" because it doesn't refer to their actual form of government, but instead references their size and population distribution.

I now have for Greece
- Democracy
- Tyranny
- Oligarchy
- Plutocracy
- Diarchy
- Monarchy

Oligarchy = Plutocracy
Monarchy is Aristrocatic government

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Re: Government forms

Post  Taylor on Mon Jan 16, 2012 5:20 am

videonfan wrote:Oligarchy = Plutocracy

Actually a plutocracy that is also an oligarchy is called a plutarchy.

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Re: Government forms

Post  videonfan on Mon Jan 16, 2012 5:28 am

Also theocracy for the jews

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Re: Government forms

Post  Taylor on Mon Jan 16, 2012 5:31 am

videonfan wrote:Also theocracy for the jews

"Theocratic Monarchy"?

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Re: Government forms

Post  videonfan on Mon Jan 16, 2012 5:41 am

Taylor wrote:
videonfan wrote:Also theocracy for the jews

"Theocratic Monarchy"?
Would do the job

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Re: Government forms

Post  Derahan on Mon Jan 16, 2012 6:44 am

Well i believe the Republic (what ever form) should be able to control larger swats of territory than an Empire, or the same ammount

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Re: Government forms

Post  Taylor on Wed Jan 18, 2012 10:30 pm

Derahan wrote:Well i believe the Republic (what ever form) should be able to control larger swats of territory than an Empire, or the same ammount

But how do we then model the Greek city state?

I was thinking, we could make it such that a certain centralization level is required to control more provinces?

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Re: Government forms

Post  Taylor on Sun Jan 22, 2012 5:24 am

Ok, so I made this scheme:


Explanation:
AbbreviationNameBonusses/MalussesMax. # provsSlider limits on:
CECelestial Empire+? yearly prestige, +? legitimacy10/20/30plutocracy
AEAristocratic Empire+?% tech cost20/40/60innovativeness, plutocracy
TETheocratic Empire-? tolerance, +?% tech cost10/20/30innovativeness, centralisation, plutocracy
FRFederated Republic+?% trade&prod income10/20/30centralisation, aristocracy
DDDirect Democracy-?% tech cost, +?% stab cost, +?%trade income, +? cultural trad.1/2/3centralisation, aristocracy, narrowmindedness
AMAristocratic Monarchy+?%prod inceome3/6/9plutocracy, centralisation
TyTyranny-? morale, +? manpower, +?%stab cost, -? legitimacy1/2/3decentralisation
DiDiarchy-? manpower, -?% tax income, +? morale, +? discipline2/4/6 centralisation, plutocracy
PPlutocracy+?% tax income1/2/3centralisation, aristocracy
THTheocracy-? tolerance2/4/6centralisation, innovativeness, plutocracy
TDTribal Despotism+?% tech cost, +?% stab cost30/60/90centralisation, plutocracy

The max. # of provs column gives three numbers for each govt form. This is because there are three levels of overexpansion (these are cumulative): Mild, Medium and Severe. Each level of overexpansion gives: +4 RR, +20% tech cost, -20% tax/trade/prod. income, -20% manpower. E.g., when you have severe overexpansion, you're suffering +12 RR, +60% tech cost, and so on.

Note that some empire forms only give malusses. This is because the fact that they have high province limits is bonus enough in itself.

In the scheme, some arrows say "by event" or "by decision". These events and decisions of course will only fire if certain conditions are met; which I haven't thought out yet. AM can form CE or AE - the decisions will be mutually exclusive. I.e., if the decision to form CE is available to you, the decision to form AE will not be. The condition will be whether or not you have embraced the "mandate of heaven" idea, which will be very hard to do for non-Chinese.

When an arrow has no note, this means you can change govt manually (of course, with some stab cost).

Any thoughts? (This is what I came up with today while sitting in a train, so I'm sure there will be oversights Smile )

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Re: Government forms

Post  Derahan on Sun Jan 22, 2012 7:46 am

The max number of provinces should increase drastically as you can't really expand and become big without too serious consecuenses as there are many provinces in the game (Controlling italy, sicily, sardinia and corsica gives you over 20 cities

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Re: Government forms

Post  Taylor on Sun Jan 22, 2012 7:57 am

Derahan wrote:The max number of provinces should increase drastically as you can't really expand and become big without too serious consecuenses as there are many provinces in the game (Controlling italy, sicily, sardinia and corsica gives you over 20 cities

that's true. so the empire forms should get higher limits?

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Re: Government forms

Post  Taylor on Sun Jan 22, 2012 8:06 am

how about 25/50/75 for all empires?

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Re: Government forms

Post  Taylor on Sun Jan 22, 2012 8:28 am

Hm, no, that's not enough either Smile.

How about CE 100/200/300, AE 100/200/300, TE 50/100/150, FR 50/100/150.

Does that make sense?

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Re: Government forms

Post  Wolololo on Sun Jan 22, 2012 10:27 am

Nice scheme! Very Happy

Hm, no, that's not enough either Smile.

How about CE 100/200/300, AE 100/200/300, TE 50/100/150, FR 50/100/150.

Does that make sense?

That seems reasonable, but the rulers ADM should also have a big effect on overexpansion I think.
The tech penalty for overexpansion seems a bit harsh though. Maybe +10% for the first stage, then 15% and 20%?

Btw. the Persian empire at its largest had about 130 provinces on this map, the empire of Alexander about 140.

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Re: Government forms

Post  Taylor on Mon Jan 23, 2012 12:48 am

Wolololo wrote:That seems reasonable, but the rulers ADM should also have a big effect on overexpansion I think.
The tech penalty for overexpansion seems a bit harsh though. Maybe +10% for the first stage, then 15% and 20%?

Btw. the Persian empire at its largest had about 130 provinces on this map, the empire of Alexander about 140.

About the Persian Empire: thanks for counting that! With the planned extra provinces in Egypt, Persia is going to be at around 150 then.

Yeah, you're right, ADM should have an effect. What shall we make it? How about (for AE):
stage|ADM<=56 or 7>=8
mild6585unlimited
medium130170unlimited
severe195255unlimited

That would put Persia and Alexander on the borderline of mild to medium overexpansion for not-so-good rulers. Sounds reasonable?

Ok, yeah the tech penalty is a bit over the top I agree. To make stuff simple I'd like each stage to be equally severe though, so I'd say then +7%/+14%/+21% ?

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Re: Government forms

Post  Wolololo on Mon Jan 23, 2012 9:00 am

That seems good.
Also, the province limits for most of the governments should be increased by quite a bit. Especially for aristocratic monarchy. And there should be some way for Federated Republic to change to empire, probably by event.

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Re: Government forms

Post  Taylor on Mon Jan 23, 2012 9:26 am

Wolololo wrote:Also, the province limits for most of the governments should be increased by quite a bit. Especially for aristocratic monarchy. And there should be some way for Federated Republic to change to empire, probably by event.

Yes and yes Smile. I underestimated the number of provinces quite a bit because I didn't have access to the game when I came up with that scheme.

I guess the reason for someone wanting to switch to an empire form from FR should be because of higher province limits I take it?

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Re: Government forms

Post  Wolololo on Mon Jan 23, 2012 9:53 am

Yup. For me, as a player, the most important thing is how big my empire is. Very Happy

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Re: Government forms

Post  Derahan on Mon Jan 23, 2012 10:00 am

Wolololo wrote:Yup. For me, as a player, the most important thing is how big my empire is. Very Happy

afro

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Re: Government forms

Post  Taylor on Sat Feb 04, 2012 4:59 am

What do we do with trade leagues? Do we simply give one or several of the listed govt forms a trade league? E.g. Direct Democracy and Plutocracy? Or do we make an entirely new govt form for it? Or are trade leagues ahistorical and shouldn't be in the mod at all? Questions, questions...

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Re: Government forms

Post  Derahan on Sun Feb 05, 2012 3:16 am

Athens pretty much controlled a trade league, carthage so also i pressume

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